How Boundaries, Scripture, and Courage Transform Christian Leadership

Speaker: 00:00
Welcome to In the Flow, a podcast for women pursuing God’s Spirit in life and leadership. I’m Kelly Johnson, and this season we’re exploring what it means to become the listening leader. Because clarity and alignment with the Lord create a more impactful leader. Each conversation invites you to slow down, lean in, and lead from a place of attunement with the Lord so that we can grow in spirit-led wisdom and authentic

Speaker: 00:34
power. Let’s get in the flow. In today’s episode, I have a conversation with Peggy Bodie. Peggy has more than 25 years of corporate leadership experience, and she uses that in her ministry called Sacred Work, where she provides free mentorship to Christian working women. Peggy is also the author of Sacred Work, a Christian woman’s guide to leadership in the marketplace. We cover so much territory in this conversation from how to have hard conversations and set boundaries to how to grow in our discernment of the

Speaker: 01:14
voice of God in our leadership. I know you’re going to enjoy this. Let’s get in the flow. Peggy, I am so looking forward to today’s conversation. I’ve been wanting to do this for like two years now, and I just admire your work. I know you recently published Sacred Work, which is a guide for Christian women in the workplace. And I’d love to just start off with understanding what prompted you to write sacred work.

Speaker 1: 01:57
So something that I needed, He calls me to step into that space and fill that gap for other people. And I remember when I first started working in corporate, was in the minority as far as a woman in

Speaker 1: 02:11
leadership in my particular industry, in my particular company, but I was also in the minority in the faith community. So there weren’t a lot of women leaders who were Christians. You know, most of the women at my church either were stay-at-home moms or they worked in ministry or they worked part-time. And so I kind of felt like I couldn’t get my footing in either space in the workspace or in the faith community. So there was, there was always that missing element that I wanted. And I really looked for mentors, Christian women who were leaders. I couldn’t find any.

I remember going to the bookstore to Barnes and Noble and asking for any books they might have about Christian women in leadership. So I remember the sales associate took me over to this little tiny section. It was all about women who were leaders in ministry. And then I was like, no, no, no, the workplace. So he took me to another section and I said, you know, Christians in the workplace. And it was all John Maxwell books.

So I remember thinking, wow, I can’t even find myself on a bookshelf, you know. Um, and and that stuck with me. And so when the opportunity came for me to enter a writing contest and submit for publication, the Holy Spirit made it clear to me that this was the topic he wanted me to write on so that women who were in a situation similar to what I was in would have a pocket-sized mentor and would have access to that Christian mentorship from a woman in the marketplace. So that’s what drove that was my motivation for writing the book. It was purely from the Holy Spirit.

Speaker: 04:00
Wow. Okay, I didn’t know that you entered a writing contest. So that’s really cool. And it is so needed. And I think you and I share, among many things, we share that similarity of the experiences, especially the really hard things that I’ve gone through. The Lord always uses it later for me to help other women. Sometimes it’s in a one-on-one conversation, sometimes it’s in a text, and sometimes it’s on a programmatic level, like in the flow or my community Rayah.

But I feel like that’s to me, you know, that verse, and I think there’s a song about it, but in the pressing, you know, God makes new wine. And that’s if we don’t get pressed, if we’re not refined by fire, then the goodness can’t truly come out. And it’s unfortunate. Sometimes I’m like, Lord, can we do this any other way? Like, how about an easy way?

Speaker 1: 04:59
So true.

Speaker: 04:60
I’d love an easy way to learn the lesson or to be able to help another person. But that is really sort of the way that God works. And Jesus himself went through that. Jesus himself wrestled with the what he knew was ahead of him before he went to the cross. And, you know, we quote that verse around how, you know, he was sweating to the point of

Speaker: 05:24
sweating blood. And he was tempted in the wilderness for 40 days before his ministry began. So even Jesus, who did not have to do it the hard way, he did. And I know that, or I believe that that’s why that scripture says, you know, that he’s acquainted with our grief. He knows he’s not a high priest who’s not touched by our infirmities, but in all areas was tempted.

And so Jesus was tempted to give up. Jesus was tempted to um not go through the full process. And yet he chose, you know, he chose to endure the cross for us. He chose to um endure the temptation of when Satan tried to take him up and said, I’ll give you all these kingdoms, you know? And he didn’t choose the easy way out. So that’s one way I try to stay grounded in if Jesus himself suffered, if Jesus himself went through really difficult situations, then so can we.

Speaker 1: 06:28
I feel the same way. And my my foundation, my ministry, sacred work is based on on that same premise, you know, in First Corinthians, and I’m paraphrasing, but the scripture says that we have endured hardships and suffering that God has helped us through so that we in turn can help others go through the same kind of suffering. So I agree with you. That theme is throughout scripture. And I think he calls us, you know, the way I say it in a simplified way is that I feel like one of the joys of going through three things the hard way is so that we can help others take an easier way. And I think we see that in the Bible time and time again.

Speaker: 07:07
Yes, that is so good. I love that. I love your simplified version. It’s a little bit easier to remember. So through your ministry, you mentor women. And um one of the things that I wanted us to talk about today is why do us women who are working, because we’ve been in the workplace a very long time, we’ve earned more college degrees than men for decades now.

Often we achieve, you know, high levels of education or certifications, and yet we’re still kind of struggling in the workplace at times. And I know your book covers some really practical tools like conflict resolution, decision making, even how to negotiate, I think is in your book, which is really cool. So I highly recommend women check it out. But I kind of want to talk about those patterns as we are in this season of really growing as listening leaders. What do we need to be listening to? And how can we fine-tune and refine our listening to the Lord in our leadership or in our careers as women?

Speaker 1: 08:16
One of the challenges that I continue to see women struggling with, Christian women, is that there’s a failure to connect God’s word with the specific scenarios that we’re dealing with in the workplace in the present time. So I think on a broad level, we we believe in God, we trust God, we know his character. But when it comes down to a lot of the things you just referenced in my book, or like what’s going on today with DEI and how we’re kind of taking a step backwards, women

Speaker 1: 08:47
are in the workplace. I think that when we can’t make connections to those things that are happening in the contemporary world, to God’s word and what he says, then we miss out because we’re, you know, we we accept what is less than the truth as a guide for how we act in the workplace, how we frame our leadership, how we frame our conversations. So I think going deep into theology and pursuing that as a priority is something that bolsters our ability to deal with those situations that are really unique and specific to women in the workplace.

Speaker: 09:30
That’s so good. So I’ll I’ll maybe share an example that comes to mind of how how I’m learning and I’m still continuing to grow in this way, but how I connect biblical truth, biblical wisdom and insights, the theology side to practical application. And for me, that is Joseph in the Old Testament is like my favorite experience in the Bible. And I love how he solved this massive problem. Like famine in an entire nation was solved by a

Speaker: 10:04
man who trusted God, a man who learned to hear from the Lord and get divine guidance and wisdom and insight for practical solutions and practical needs. And I would say that that is something that the Lord has highlighted as a part of my calling, which is really leaning into the prophetic, leaning into I can hear God’s voice, not audibly, but I can gain wisdom from him with very practical solutions that if I attune to him, if I submit to his will and his wisdom and what he’s trying to show me or teach me, then he can give me answers to issues in the moment.

I remember for one of the first times I was dealing with this, I had a boss that was not great. And he had a reputation in the entire organization for not being a great manager. He would often ask me to do very unrealistic things. And I remember one day just praying as he was asking me in my one-on-one with him, and he was about to ask me to do something that I thought was a total waste of my time. It just didn’t make sense. It was like busy work. And I started praying just silently in the meeting. And he said, you know what? Never mind, forget it. That’s okay. Don’t worry about it. I was like, whoa.

You know, that was a huge turning point for me. And that was probably close to 20 years ago that that happened. So I definitely was new to trying to listen to the voice of God in my work. I think I was so desperate to be out of that situation and in that moment that I just decided to pray. And then fast forward further into my career and leading my consulting firm and really leaning on the Lord for divine wisdom and guidance and how I run my business and how I service my clients and everything really being birthed in prayer. Those are just some examples for me.

I’m curious, Peggy, how that became practical for you. Before we continue, let me ask you: have you ever wondered how to tell if it’s God’s voice or just your own thoughts? In the Flow is so much more than a podcast. Each season, I produce a free resource to support your growth. And for this series on the listening leader, I created a free devotional called How to Hear God at Work. It’ll help you slow down and recognize God’s leading in everyday decisions. Whether you’re leading a team, a business, or your own heart, visit im KellyJohnson.com and click on the resources

Speaker: 12:49
section to get your free copy today.

Speaker 1: 12:54
So I have an example from my earlier days that is kind of the flip side of your example. So I had a difficult boss, and we were at odds about a lot of different things, and I would disagree with him immediately. Like that was my first reaction. Um there were some, there were, I had some deeper issues with how, with his leadership, but my moment came when I was praying about, you know, about my difficult boss. And that evening,

Speaker 1: 13:27
I was going through my email and I was looking for something, and I found an email that I had sent to my boss a few weeks prior. And when I read that email, the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to how insubordinate and rude I was and held me and to account on that in such a powerful way that it was a huge pivot point for me. And when I was reading that email, it was almost like I was reading an email that someone else had written, but I had written it.

But God just made it so clear to me that that was not edifying to him. I was not working with excellence in how I was communicating with my boss and how I was behaving. That insight I know came from the Holy Spirit because I wasn’t talking about it with other people. This came directly from the Holy Spirit.

And he, you know, what what I learned from that was it’s okay for me to disagree, but that doesn’t need to be my first go-to. You know, that doesn’t need to be the first tool that I that I take out of the toolkit. And and also um it hit me really hard because my boss was not a believer that what does it look like for me to carry the banner of heaven in that manner? What does that look like? You know, and and and no, that does not that does not work. That is not compatible with being um, you know, image bearer of God. So that was a turning, turning point for me. And and I love how you brought in prayer, because I think that is is the key.

So even when we’re we’re digging deep into scripture, I think before that even happens, whatever the case is, whether it’s God, I I need to advocate for myself to get this promotion, but I don’t know how to do that and still feel like I’m not being prideful. You know, how can I be humble and accomplish that? Show me, you know, prayer, I feel like always has to go hand in hand because theology is all about deepening our relationship with God and our understanding of who he is and who we are in him. So I love that you mentioned prayer because it has to go hand in hand.

Speaker: 15:51
Absolutely. I love your story, and I can relate to that too. I’ve definitely had those situations where the Holy Spirit convicted me of my attitude. But there’s a verse that says, you know, in order to find a friend, you have to show yourself friendly. I was in conflict with um another, another woman leader, and we were like, it was territorial, it was awful. I was right there going tit for tat. One day the Lord was like, you have to show yourself friendly. I was like, ooh, ouch. He made me like you extend the olive branch, you be the bigger person. I messaged her and I was like, Can we set up a time to chat? I asked if we could reset, and she was gracious and

Speaker: 16:48
she agreed. And I don’t know if she was a believer or not, but that was definitely a lesson in humble pie and it being prompted by the Lord. I I think as we grow, thankfully, the Lord lead leads us and is gracious to meet us exactly where we are. And sometimes I think as believers, we can think, oh, I don’t know the whole Bible and I don’t understand everything I read.

And one of the Holy Spirit’s roles is to teach us things that we already know. So it’s in our hearts, it’s in us, but the Holy Spirit is what helps us access what’s in Scripture with what’s on God’s heart. And it’s like this dot connection. And we don’t have to know every scripture word for word. But if we are flexible and moldable, he will teach us everything that we need to know.

Speaker 1: 17:38
That is perfectly said. And and I think what you said about God being gracious as we grow and mature, as the process of sanctification happens, I love that too, because I think sometimes we get caught up on, you know, I didn’t pray it the right way, or maybe we quote a scripture and another Christian quickly says, Oh, that’s completely out of context. That’s not what God means. And so, you know, we we’re at different stages in our spiritual maturity, and we don’t know, we don’t have all the answers, we don’t know all the verses, we don’t know the linguistics and the culture and the history behind it.

But what God wants first and foremost is that relationship. And I think that even the simplest prayer, I mean, it’s the Bible shows us over and over, even the simplest prayer with the right hot heart posture, God hears us. We’re his children, he wants to respond. So he tells us, knock and the door will be opened. And we we just have to posture ourselves to receive, even if we don’t have all the answers, like you said, Kelly, he’s gonna give us the answer we need at just the right time and just the right way.

Speaker: 18:48
Amen to that. Oh my goodness. I feel like we could talk keep talking about this because ultimately there’s there’s two points I’ll make here, and then you can kind of respond how you want to. But number one, I feel like what we’re saying is being a cultural Christian is not enough. Being a Christian that goes to church every Sunday is not enough. God is after our hearts, and in this really tough, complex world that we live in, God is requiring more of us to whom much is given, much is required, and we have a responsibility. Now that may I don’t think that’s in the Bible, I think

Speaker: 19:24
that’s from the Spider-Man movie, but I like that. I love that movie. I think the uncle is the one who says it, but you know, we have a responsibility to grow, and we can’t just lean on what we how we were raised, the doctrine of our church, the doctrine of our political party, the doctrine of even our friends and our circle, because ultimately we have to be in relationship with the Lord and follow his leadership, follow the Lord’s guidance and how he’s leading us to show up.

There’s been a couple of times where I’ve been driving and the Lord’s like, turn around, go see if that person needs help. And there have been times I want to ignore it because I’m like, I have somewhere to go. I’ve got I’m busy. I don’t know that person. And God wants a yield at heart.

So that’s kind of one point I’ll make. And then I think just the other piece is like making sure one of the ways we grow is, of course, prayer, of course, reading scripture, deep devotion. And then just making sure that we have people around us who are sharpening us in that faith, that we can wrestle those things together in a way that is really kind of pure or as pure as our hearts can be in order to really dig deeper to say, okay, Lord, what are you saying? Because on a practical level, this doesn’t make sense.

The math isn’t mathing, or this is outside of my box, this isn’t the way that I was raised, or this isn’t what my church does, or whatever that might be. Ultimately, we have to have people that we can do life with, that we can do leadership with, who can challenge us and who can also listen on our behalf to what the Lord might be saying.

Speaker 1: 21:15
Yeah, that’s so good. I think that Christian women in leadership, I think one of the struggles that you and I have talked about before is isolation. And that can come from the faith community, it can come from the workplace. But as we know, that is not how God designed us. And it is what the enemy wants because then we aren’t sharpened, then we aren’t encouraged, we aren’t, we don’t have the gift of other people’s knowledge and experience and and friendship. So I I think that

Speaker 1: 21:49
that community we need to be really intentional with it and mindful about investing in it. And I think it’s also important to. Kind of take a step back, at least quarterly throughout the year, and think about, you know, am I isolating myself? You know, am I doing this to myself? Or if I’m feeling this way, why is that? And and what relationships should I pursue? Or what programs or organizations do I need to pursue? Or, you know, in some cases, it could be a church where a lot of churches still don’t have groups for working women.

You know, there’s groups for singles and groups for married couples and moms, but there’s not a lot of groups for professional Christian women. So maybe that’s something God’s calling you to create. You know, so I think assessing that those relationships are what’s missing from my life? And am I feeling isolated? And God, what would you have me do about that? I think that’s really important because He did create us for community for a reason.

Speaker: 22:54
That’s right. That’s right. And I remember you saying in one of our earlier conversations, you know, Jesus had the 12 and he had the three. And um, I know boundaries is something that you’re also passionate about. Yes, we need community, but we also need safe community and we need godly community. And I love your advice to periodically kind of evaluate and maybe bring before the Lord, hey, this is my circle. This is who I have, or this is who I feel like I don’t have.

I’ve I’m unfortunately meet a lot of women who are praying for Christian women friends. And it’s it breaks my heart that not every woman has the friend group that she needs to grow spiritually, professionally, as a sister, as a mother, as a daughter, as an aunt, whatever the different hats are that we wear. It breaks my heart when not every woman has that around her. And then I would also say just also evaluating the health of the relationships that we do have. And are we in a season where we might need to re-evaluate boundaries? Would you add anything to that conversation?

Speaker 1: 24:04
I think yes, and I am a big advocate of boundaries because I know what it’s like

Speaker 1: 24:09
to not have them. And God has shown me over the years that that boundaries are a way of protecting relationships, not severing relationships, but protecting relationships, protecting ourselves, protecting the people that we love. So I’m a big advocate of boundaries. I think women struggle with boundaries more, especially Christian women, because we feel like we’re not being nice if we don’t say yes to everything. And so I do think that part of having boundaries is evaluating the health of relationships, because sometimes friendships are for a season, sometimes working relationships are for a season, and that’s okay.

The Bible shows us that there is this pattern of reaping and sowing, and there are seasons that start and end throughout scripture. And I think we can take from that that some friendships and relationships are forever and some are just for that season. But I think also that there are times when God calls us to have people in our lives and he calls us, he doesn’t release us from that, but that doesn’t mean we can’t put boundaries around those relationships.

So, you know, we we can limit our time, we can limit our exposure, we can be mindful of how and when those connections take place. And when we do that, we protect ourselves from being, you know, from regretting investing too much time or being becoming resentful toward the person that that God has said, no, I’m not releasing you from this. You are to, you’re to stay friends with them. So I think boundaries are important in community to protect the community, to protect ourselves and to to grow in our relationship with God.

Speaker: 25:54
That’s so good. I want to get your thoughts on this because uh there’s two women that I’m coaching right now, both very senior level, and both recently had to have hard conversations with their leadership. And it’s connected to boundaries because what I see with women in the workplace is when we do have to have hard conversations. First of all, it’s hard enough to have the hard conversation. But afterwards, and I do this as well, but afterwards, what I see us do often

Speaker: 26:30
is really question and second guess did I say it right? Should I have said that? I don’t want to come across as fill in the blank, right? Um and for example, for black women, I’ll just be very straightforward. Unfortunately, there’s a very ugly stereotype that if we say anything straightforward or semi-direct, that we’re angry, like the label of the angry black woman, people will slap that on us in a heartbeat.

And so we have to be even more careful when we are trying to self-advocate, to have agency and really speak up on our behalf, speak up on our team’s behalf, to ask for resources, budget, headcount, all of those practical things. And so while we’re on this conversation around boundaries, I would love for us to maybe just also talk about even when we do set boundaries, because that’s one hurdle that we have to get over sometimes of just, wow, I have to find it within myself.

I have to pray and ask the Lord, how should I have this hard conversation? And okay, I finally did it. I’m setting a boundary that I believe the Lord is, you know, inviting me to. But afterwards, I feel like sometimes we don’t talk enough about afterwards and even the head trash that the enemy likes to throw at us, like, well, you don’t sound like a good Christian because you actually spoke up for yourself, right? I don’t know. Any thoughts there, Peggy?

Speaker 1: 28:11
Yeah, I think that’s a really, really good question. And I think one of the things we can do is anticipate, you know, that we don’t serve a God of confusion. We serve a God of clarity. And if we’re experiencing confusion after moving forward, you know, after committing something to prayer, hearing from the Lord, and moving forward in that. And we’re afterwards, all that noise is is clouding our minds, making it hard for us to sleep, making a second guess, then I think we have to go to the source immediately. Did I have peace about setting this boundary? Yes. Did I pray about this before? Yes. So, and do I serve a God of confusion? No. So, where is the confusion

Speaker 1: 29:01
and the noise and the clamoring coming from? It’s coming from the enemy. So I think that’s one thing we can do. I also think that we can anchor into a verse and write that down. Even if you’re not someone who journals, I’m a journaler. But if you’re not, write it down in anticipation of that clamoring happen. If you know you’re a person who second guesses after the fact, anchor into a verse. And it’s usually a verse that would have come to mind while you were praying about setting this boundary. And then once you’ve set it, once you’ve had that hard conversation, come back to it.

As soon as the enemy starts, you know, that yapping, go back to that verse and even say it out loud several times and commit it and say, you know, I am at peace because, and read that verse out loud. But also I think it’s helpful to have a Christian mentor or a friend who can talk you off the ledge and say, I’m starting to, I felt really good about this at the time. But now that I’ve had the conversation, I’m starting to second guess what I said, how I said it, maybe I didn’t hear God. And that person can speak truth. It’s like you said earlier, Kelley, iron sharpens iron.

It doesn’t always feel good, but we are sharper as a result. So bring that to a trusted friend or mentor. It may even be someone you talk to about needing to set the boundary to begin with. So they’re going to already be familiar with the conversation and then let them speak truth into the clamor, into that noise, and help, you know, they can help you get back to right thinking about the decision that you prayerfully made when you decided to set the boundary in the first place.

Speaker: 30:43
That’s so good. I love, and you’re absolutely right. And in the in the examples that I just shared with you, both women not only prayed for a very long time, but they also sought advisors and counsel, right? Like they didn’t just jump out there and just say something off the cuff. And yet afterwards, they started to struggle. Did I do the right thing? Did I say it the right way? Should I have, should I, should I? And, you know, the enemy loves to accuse. The enemy loves to torment. And we have to remember that.

There’s a difference between the enemy accusing us of something and the Holy Spirit convicting. And it does take take growth and maturity in that to kind of be able to tell the difference. But then to your point, Peggy, who’s around you to kind of help you discern is this Holy Spirit conviction, like the examples we gave earlier, like Kelly, you could be you could be friendlier here or you need to extend the olive branch, right? Like that’s Holy Spirit conviction. I didn’t feel like I was the worst person in the world. I felt challenged to rise higher; I felt challenged to exemplify my heavenly father more fully.

Speaker: 32:02
And I heard that from your example as well. Like I loved your phrasing of if I’m wearing the banner of heaven, like that’s a that’s a high calling. That’s a wonderful opportunity to try to rise towards every single day. Am I representing heaven here when I go into this meeting? When I have this conversation. And it doesn’t mean that we don’t have hard conversations. It doesn’t mean that we do not speak truth in love. If something is wrong, it is wrong. If something’s not ethical, it’s not ethical, or whatever that case may be. Or perhaps we actually were wronged. And we have the right to address those areas where we have been harmed. I think unfortunately in the Christian space, we have confused that word uh peacemaker with peacekeeper.

Peacemakers, that’s hard work. It’s heavy lifting. Peacekeepers, e that’s easier because then you just don’t address anything. All in the name of, I’m just gonna keep the peace. Well, it’s a false peace. But peacemakers get to the root of the issue and they address what’s good and right, what should we keep, but they also address what’s broken and what’s not quite the heart and character of God.

And so um, I just think that when we’re talking about boundaries, when we’re talking about heart conversations, we as believers, as the Christian community, I think we need to have deeper and more comprehensive conversations around what does boundary setting really look like. And even afterwards, because there’s so much noise coming at us, that a Christian should be nice. A Christian should never sort of say anything that would be hard for anyone to hear. Uh, and I’m not talking about being abrasive, that’s completely different.

Speaker: 34:08
But I think that I just think that we have more growth to do in this area.

Speaker 1: 34:14
I remember when I was first struggling with boundaries years ago, I had a friend who asked me the hard question, or she made an observation and she said, you know, it seems to me that you’re more concerned about being liked than about the health of the relationship. You’re more concerned about how you’re perceived than correcting the situation. That hit me, and that wasn’t easy to receive, but it was true. That was kind of a turning point for me because I think we have to have the humility to realize, yeah, I’m emphasizing wanting to be perfect or wanting to be liked

Speaker 1: 35:00
more than I am having a genuine, authentic relationship where truth and love exist, you know. So I think that those deeper relationships help us understand why it’s important to set boundaries. And when we resist that, where is that resistance coming from?

Speaker: 35:21
That’s so good. And I love your example of your friend who may who had an observation, framed it as something for you to consider. Like that to me is a beautiful example of a godly friend. Or even because sometimes those kinds of insights can come from non-believers, but God can use them to speak those things to help us really see the situation more objectively. So um, this has been such a rich, rich conversation. And um, I knew that it would be. Peggy, before we wrap up, I do want to give you an opportunity to let us know where we can find your book, Sacred Work, and where can we connect with you?

Speaker 1: 36:01
You can find Sacred Work on all the major retailer sites. And if anyone would like to connect with me, I’d love to hear from them. They can do that at my website, which is PeggyBodie.com, or they can find me on LinkedIn. I’m the only Peggy Bodhi out there.

Speaker: 36:18
That’s awesome. So thank you. Such great wisdom and counsel for all of us to consider as we are growing

Speaker: 36:25
in our careers, as and your book, Sacred Work, is such a great resource for us. Thank you for allowing the Lord to allow you to go through those hard seasons so that you can help all of us. Thank you for inviting me on, Kelley. I loved our time together. Thank you for flowing with me today. If this episode strengthened your spirit and leadership, be sure to subscribe and share it with a friend. Remember, deeper clarity starts in community. Visit IamKellyJohnson.com for free devotionals and to learn more about Raya Circles, where faith and leadership truly go together in the flow.